tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-876502085465766394.post3995984896238809377..comments2024-01-17T03:08:25.317-06:00Comments on The Progressive Catholic Voice: Twice Removed: Why Our Sacraments Often Don't Connect with Real LifePCV Editorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12519134580470262558noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-876502085465766394.post-65416060827731711112016-04-03T18:04:19.837-05:002016-04-03T18:04:19.837-05:00Thanks, Jim. Is your point about the Roman rite th...Thanks, Jim. Is your point about the Roman rite that if the leaders prepared well and the participants prayed and reflected well over time, the rite itself would more than adequately ritualize the essentials of the Christian life as experienced by contemporary Christians? Maybe so, but given all our ordinariness, could we get to the profound in a simpler way? The pope seemed to be able to do that in the foot washing by the people he chose to participate and the reverence he manifested. Paulahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08389246906787138401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-876502085465766394.post-39205859631708308302016-04-03T17:34:39.438-05:002016-04-03T17:34:39.438-05:00On Confirmation:
Martos' statement about the p...On Confirmation:<br />Martos' statement about the post Vatican II years in reference to the sacrament of Confirmation, pushed my button. He says "The primary effect of confirmation seemed to be dropping out of church". I submit that effect is of our own making and could have been and still can be avoided. In the years following Vatican II it became evident that Confirmation was "a sacrament in search of a meaning". Why? It had been dislocated from its traditional location as part of Christian initiation. (It is not an accident that the listing of the order of the sacraments defined at the Council of Trent and still today is "baptism, confirmation, eucharist..."). The dislocation was the consequence of the incomplete reforms of Pope Pius X in 1907 when he moved the age of first eucharist from ages 14-15 back to age 7 ("the use of reason") without attending to its effect on confirmation which had always been celebrated before first eucharist as part of the initiation into the eucharistic community. The effect on confirmation as liturgical scholars have noted for years was to leave it dangling in a pastoral vacuum which pastors, parents, and religious educators of children tried to make sense of. The issue was greatly discussed in the 1970s and after between liturgists and religious educators with the latter arguing that Confirmation could be "used" to assist teen agers to make a commitment to follow Christ and stay in the church. And that is what happened in most dioceses of the United States (although in the archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis the option was allowed for a time for parishes to celebrate confirmation prior to first eucharist and some did). But the new practice of teen confirmation prevailed and it ended, in effect, the traditional meaning of the sacrament, namely, an anointing and handlaying to complete and strengthen one's baptism and lead to the commitments that partaking in the Eucharist demand. Has this radical change in the tradition and meaning of confirmation had its desired results? Do our Catholic teens celebrate this sacrament as a convincing "adult commitment" to follow Christ and be full members of the church? Obviously, some do, but far greater number of teens choose not to participate saying they are not ready in their volatile teen years to make that kind of commitment and so the sacrament is forgotten. Or, if they feel pressure to receive confirmation, it often has as its after effect, as Martos says, "dropping out of the church" . It should be noted that the practice of delaying confirmation to teen years long after first eucharist is unique in the Catholic church to children born of Catholic parents and baptized in infancy. All others coming into the church, unbaptized adults and children of catechetical age, and those baptized in other Christian traditions, receive confirmation before coming to eucharist--the traditional order with its ancient meaning. As I said, Martos' throwaway comment pushed my button.<br /><br />Jim Moudry<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-876502085465766394.post-51438349139199732822016-04-03T17:30:10.468-05:002016-04-03T17:30:10.468-05:00Thank you for posting Joseph Martos' article a...Thank you for posting Joseph Martos' article and for the invitation to comment on it. I read it when it first appeared in NCR in February, 2016. I enjoy and agree with his historical review of the Church's liturgical and sacramental practice. His statement "in many ways, sacramental ministry devolved into sacramental magic in the late Middle Ages" is a good summary of the period, and the later reforms of the Council of Trent, while correcting the most flagrant abuses, were incomplete. Which brings us to Vatican II. Prior to the Council the disjunction between the church's sacramental theology and people's lived experience had grown nearly complete. As we used to say when I was teaching theology, "wall paper without walls!" At the same time we need to remember that failures in church teaching and practice are not all that is to be said. My pastor, Father Michael Reding, reminded us today in reflecting on Jesus post resurrection meeting with the apostle Thomas, that the Risen Christ's body is filled with wounds, and that wounded body is the Church. Failures and disjunction in church life and practice ought not to surprise us though they hurt, and are never the last or only word. <br /><br />Martos is not very optimistic about the ability of contemporary theologies around the reformed Mass and sacraments to connect truly with people's lives. And he says we need ways to ritualize what is essential to Christian life. While I would agree that much of the experience of ritual worship falls short of doing that, I am not as quick to agree that existing forms of worship are at fault. So much depends on how they are celebrated. The post Vatican II reforms of the liturgy are very significant, and they continue to undergo reform. They require considerable prayer and reflection over time to achieve their purpose. While not at all perfect I think way too often their profundity is not understood well by those who are charged with preparing and leading the prayer with the result that too often the prayer is superficial or secularized to make it appear relevant. In some ways it is not that they have been tried and found wanting; they have not really been tried. Maybe in the end Martos' judgment about the inadequacy of our prayers forms is accurate. But I, for one, am not there yet. Meanwhile, Martos gives us a very good article to ponder.<br /><br />Jim Moudry<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-876502085465766394.post-5509007352497016802016-04-01T18:29:31.683-05:002016-04-01T18:29:31.683-05:00One reason may be that they are based on an antiqu...One reason may be that they are based on an antiquated defunct redemption/atonement theology. We are not fallen, but evolving.John Chuchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15078522877428634122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-876502085465766394.post-89394591100970872362016-03-31T13:59:40.877-05:002016-03-31T13:59:40.877-05:00Thanks, Fr. Mike. I noticed the sketchy historical...Thanks, Fr. Mike. I noticed the sketchy historical flyover too. Even in the language it seems directed to a specific audience. <br /><br />If he is right in the four paragraphs about the fatal flaw in the Vatican II theologians' method--just before the final paragraph--that is a pretty big point. Do you think the problem is being addressed anywhere? Paulahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08389246906787138401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-876502085465766394.post-175968947321839352016-03-31T13:33:54.781-05:002016-03-31T13:33:54.781-05:00Martos is a venerable scholar, especially in thing...Martos is a venerable scholar, especially in things liturgical. For that reason I was surprised by his whirlwind, and thus necessarily reductive, tour through Christian history in this article. He of all people would know that the story of the development of theology for whole chunks of centuries cannot be boiled down to a paragraph. I found this article unworthy of his reputation. For example, how can one speak of the council of Nicea and not say anything about Arius and Arianism? That was the sole reason for the convocation (theologically, anyway) of the synod. And it is a fairly elementary interpretive rule of conciliar texts that what is not in dispute is not discussed in documents. The fact that the Nicene Creed does not speak to the issue of following Jesus is no proof that such an instinct had disappeared. I think Martos' overall thesis here is something very worthy of taking seriously, but he has done a very sloppy job in its defense, in my opinion.<br />Fr. Mike ByronAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-876502085465766394.post-65932328119096883142016-03-31T00:33:41.234-05:002016-03-31T00:33:41.234-05:00For myself, I question the data and information th...For myself, I question the data and information the author has, if any, that priests never left the priesthood and spouses never left each other in the “idyllic” medieval times. Henry VIII could not get a divorce, so he just beheaded the wives he didn’t like. Does that count as “never leaving”?<br /> <br />Peace,<br />Bob BeutelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-876502085465766394.post-28625852690429330952016-03-30T20:15:02.249-05:002016-03-30T20:15:02.249-05:00The community is the essential substance in all th...The community is the essential substance in all the sacraments. Today's spirituality is much more vertical (Me and Jesus/Spirit) and is incomplete in my opinion. <br /><br />St. Joan of Arc had the best of both (private and communal) reconciliation rituals this year. There was liturgical music, readings by prayer partners, an opportunity to contemplate our failures and then write them on a piece of paper. Later, we were invited to whisper those failures to the priest (2 priests in the open) in the same fashion as we would approach Eucharist -single file. We then put our slips of paper in a large vase (later to be burned) and then we were embraced by a prayer partner (laity) in a big bear hug. The community was the essential component signifying full absolution, forgiveness and an open arms welcome back into the Church (People of God). Truly a Spirit filled service that demonstrated God's mercy and faithfulness.<br /><br />Nancy Gotto<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-876502085465766394.post-56552639745477720502016-03-30T17:24:56.227-05:002016-03-30T17:24:56.227-05:00He is right on. His final paragraph is a good sol...He is right on. His final paragraph is a good solution; implementing it will be something else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-876502085465766394.post-45829665001246964402016-03-30T17:21:58.252-05:002016-03-30T17:21:58.252-05:00I wonder if there is any group who has rediscovere...I wonder if there is any group who has rediscovered essentials and reinvented ways to ritualize them? I also wonder if people who are full-time dedicated to the service of the very needy experience the Roman rite liturgy any differently from those of us who are not? Anyone know?<br /><br />"We need to rediscover what is essential to the Christian way of life, reinvent ways to ritualize that, and reformulate what those rituals mean in terms that are faithful both to the teachings of Jesus and to the experience of living in accordance with them."Paulahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08389246906787138401noreply@blogger.com