The claim of many self-professed “orthodox” Catholics nowadays that they have the corner on dogmatic truth and the practice of the spiritual life is astonishingly self-righteous. And like all self-righteousness, it’s woefully oblivious of the manifold ways in which all of us fall short, both in what we know and what we do, in our lives of faith.
It’s absolutely impossible to be informed to the hilt about what the church teaches, and to follow every rubric to perfection. As Jesus himself teaches over and over in the gospels, the point of the spiritual life is not rubristic perfection at all. It’s our disposition of openness to God, our willingness to be led where we do not intend to go.
. . . The claim of today’s self-professed “orthodox” Catholics that they scrupulously adhere to every jot and tittle of church teaching (and that they know each jot and tittle) seems to me spectacularly to miss the point. The point is that church teachings have shifted constantly over the years, in response to new cultural insights and developments. And that any time we’ve chosen to imagine that we can freeze those teachings at a particular moment in time, we’ve been proven wrong. Because cultural development itself does not stop, and along with it, doctrinal development and development of the church’s moral teaching occurs. Because development and change must occur, if the teachings of the church are to reach new generations of believers, or believers in new cultural settings.
. . . Rather than trying to learn and follow everything, it might be wiser for Catholics today to try to focus on what counts above all. I wonder what would happen if we started the catechetical process with the gospels, for instance, as Terry Weldon wisely suggests we might do? With the Sermon on the Mount?
– William D. Lindsey
“The Catechism Again: The I-Believe-Everything
Approach to Catholic Orthodoxy”
The Open Tabernacle
June 2, 2010
“The Catechism Again: The I-Believe-Everything
Approach to Catholic Orthodoxy”
The Open Tabernacle
June 2, 2010
In First Run Feature's film: "For the Bible Tells Me So" Disciples of Christ Minister Rev. Laurence Keene says: "I have a soft spot in my heart for Literalists because I used to be one." I personally have history as a Protestant Evangelical who attended a Nazarene Bible College, and later became a conservative, "Orthodox" Catholic. Therefore, I can say "I have a soft spot in my heart for Biblical Literalists and "Orthodox" Catholics, because I have been both in my life's history."
ReplyDeleteIn the same movie: "For the Bible Tells Me So" Retired Anglican Bishop Eugene Holloway of Edinburgh says: "Biblical Literalist's are Christians who know the truth, absolutely so they are not able to engage in a conversation. They are only able to engage in a pronouncement of what the Bible says." I think that is very true. I also think that for "Orthodox" Catholic's that they are people who have undoubtedly read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Documents of Vatican II and even the great encyclicals, books by Ignatius Press, and Our Sunday Visitor. (I told you, I was once one of them, and I used to read a lot of that stuff all the time). I along with other "Orthodox" Catholics would stick like glue to EWTN. I shunned things like the National Catholic Reporter and many other more progressive Catholic resources.
I think the words of Bishop Holloway can very much fit with "Orthodox" Catholics. They are individuals who know the Catholic truth, and so they are not really able to engage in conversations with most people about anything except what the Catholic Church teaches about various subjects. Church authority, the Sacraments, homosexuality, abortion, and all other subjects are only to be discussed with "Orthodox" Catholics from the "light" of what the Church teaches. Any understanding or persuasion that is different than what is taught in the Catechism or pronounced by Relevant Radio, is simply because the "true teachings of the Church" are just not understood.
I regret that my having lived through both of those experiences led me to be very rude to many wonderful and loving people. One of whom I treated very poorly in Loring Park during Pride in 2007. When I gave my presentation about my Courage experience last November, I apologized to that person, and how embarrassed I was.
If I may offer a few more thoughts, the Truth is Jesus Christ and I don't think any true follower of Christ even the most progressive denies that reality. However, the truth about God as Creator, Servant and Life-Giver, does not mean we check our brains at the door of our churches, or Rosary beads, or Prayer Book. Truth is not only eternal, it is also always evolving and expanding. The Bible and the Church continue to proclaim about Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity. But it is important to recognize what Bishop Tutu said in "For the Bible Tells Me So." "The Bible is the word of God through the words of human beings speaking in the idiom of their time." I would also add that at the point when the Church understood the "fullness of truth" as spoken by a Pope, Bishops or any document, it is still given through human beings with limited understanding of the world around them. And like anything else is open to interpretation and expansion. To limit ourselves to a single understanding of the Bible or some Church's teaching results in limiting ourselves to what the Holy Spirit desires to teach us with her beauty and grace.
Those are my thoughts. Bless you all.
The problem with dissidents is that they don't know what they are talking about.
ReplyDelete1. Orthodox Catholics don't maintain that they "have the corner on dogmatic truth." They claim that the Catholic Church has "the corner on dogmatic truth."
2. "It’s absolutely impossible to be informed to the hilt about what the church teaches, and to follow every rubric to perfection." True, but all things are possible with Jesus!
3. "The claim of today’s self-professed “orthodox” Catholics that they scrupulously adhere to every jot and tittle of church teaching (and that they know each jot and tittle) seems to me spectacularly to miss the point." Please name one orthodox Catholic who claims that. Any orthodox Catholic would first proclaim that he or she is a sinner and that only through the graces of Jesus Christ would it be possible for them to make it to heaven.
". . . Rather than trying to learn and follow everything, it might be wiser for Catholics today to try to focus on what counts above all. I wonder what would happen if we started the catechetical process with the gospels, for instance, as Terry Weldon wisely suggests we might do? With the Sermon on the Mount?"
Pagans and atheists, Hindus and Bhuddists, Zoroastrians and most others observe most of the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount. As do orthodox Catholics, not always perfectly, who attempt to observe all the teaching of the Bible and Jesus Christ, not just grabbing a few verses here and there that fits their expectations on how they want to live.
Ray what actually happens on blogs, commentary sites, and politics is Orthodox Catholics grab a few verses here and here that fits their expectations of how they want OTHERS to live.
ReplyDeleteThat's my problem with the Othodox.
The problem with "dissidents" is that actually all Christians are "dissidents". Christians were those who dissented from an already established religion. Christians were disobedient to the cultural and social status of the day. Jesus himself, was a revolutionary. Jesus made room for the socially unacceptable, and helped them find their way to God.
ReplyDeleteChristianity did not just drop out of the sky and become what it is, just as the Bible didn't just appear out of no where. Jesus was a human being, born into an imperfect world, faced everything as it was, not as he would have liked it to have been. But Jesus welcomed the outcast, even recognized the eunuchs (the homosexuals of Jesus' time see Mt 19:12) as beautiful and holy people. So the Church needs to be challenged to look beyond it's present understanding and see things in a new and wonderful light.
If all truth is only proclaimed by the Catholic church, then why is it that other traditions have not only accepted many aspects of Catholic teaching, expanded and moved beyond it, and they (we) who ever are thriving and existing? "For God would not have made anything if God had hated it" (Wisdom 11:24b).
All Truth, whether it be Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, Congregational, Unitarian, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim and the like is still truth that has been called forth and preserved due to some aspect of God who is all Truth. Even the Roman Catholic church recognizes that there are people who "through no fault of their own" just have never heard about the message of Christianity. And they do not condemn others for having done so. Yet they hypocritically condemn homosexuals through their understanding of Scripture and Tradition. In the Anglican tradition, we understand that God also gives to all humankind the gifted ability of reason, to understand that God does not exist in a Pandoras Box. The Holy Spirit does not wish for us to remain boxed up with no room to breath, understand new things and be open to how God is revealed in wonderfully different ways.
Orthodox Catholics cannot engage in an educated discussion without pronouncing the teachings of the Church in face of the argument that is designed to be the conversation stopper. So called "dissidents" know what the Church teaches, but they also know that there is always some information that has been left out of the equation. Their desire is not to be disrespectful, but to give some opportunity for truth to continue to develop and expand.
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit was coming to "guide you into all truth." That meant that even with Jesus there with the Apostles, all of the truth had not been totally and completely revealed. The truth of the Holy Spirit, is that she desires to continue speaking, teaching and helping Christians and the Church to widen our development of what is true so that all are welcome, not just those who fit the status quo.
colkoch:
ReplyDeleteI'd have to know what blogs, websites, etc you are referring to. There are a lot of extremists on all sides of every issue, including Catholicism.
Many people who consider themselves "orthodox" Catholics might actually be sedevacantist heretics on the right, or relativists and/or modernists on the left.
One of the real problems in this issue is that being Catholic for many is something that they think that they get to determine. Even if they only go to Church twice a year, some might consider themselves Catholic.
That is why belief in and adherence to the Words of Jesus Christ, as written in the Holy Bible and the teachings of the Catholics Church based on that, the Traditions of the Church and the teachings of the Popes and the Magisterium, the teaching arm of the Church, are what determines who is Catholic.
And, all Catholics are sinners, so nobody is absolutely perfect in that manner. Acknowledgment of being a sinner is mandatory!
Philip Love:
ReplyDelete1. All Christians are not "dissidents." The first Christians might have been considered dissidents from the point of view of the Sanhedrin. But Jesus Christ was the Messiah proclaiming the New and Eternal Covenant and that was not recognized by the Sanhedrin.
2. The Catholic Church recognizes homosexuals as "beautiful and holy people." It is homosexual activity that it opposes.
3. "If all truth is only proclaimed by the Catholic church, then why is it that other traditions have not only accepted many aspects of Catholic teaching, expanded and moved beyond it, and they (we) who ever are thriving and existing?"
"Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church." It is great that many accept some of the teachings of the Catholics and its Bible. But by what authority do they get to "expand and move beyond it." They are no longer part of "Jesus' Church."
4. All Truth is preserved by the Catholic Church in its Bible, its Traditions and its Teachings. The Church does not condemn homosexuals. The Church condemns homosexual activity.
"The Holy Spirit does not wish for us to remain boxed up with no room to breath, understand new things and be open to how God is revealed in wonderfully different ways." Where did that come from?
5. You just don't get it. The Catholic Church is Jesus Christ's Church. He created it and its leadership up and they are the protectors of truth. Not every person who feels a calling to start a new church because of an ah ha moment. Right now there apparently are somewhere between 30,000 and 50,000 protestant denominations. Each one declaring to be the font of truth. The Catholic Church is the font of truth with respect to the teachings of Jesus and of our salvation.
6. "The truth of the Holy Spirit, is that she desires to continue speaking, teaching and helping Christians and the Church to widen our development of what is true so that all are welcome, not just those who fit the status quo." All indeed are welcome to worship God in accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church. If they choose to do so using other teachings, whether christian or pagan, God may accept that. But that is not what He set up as the surest way to Heaven.
In so doing here, you have proven my point. You cannot do anything except "pronounce" the teachings of the Catholic church. And it is designed to stop the conversation. All intelligence stops at the Catholic church, yet the heart of Jesus desires that the church open it's doors and heart to new understandings. Therefore all truth is not contained only in the Catechism. The Catholic church is not the only institution of truth, it is only one institution that speaks some part of the truth.
ReplyDeleteLoving committed homosexual relationships are not condemned in the Bible, and therefore the Catholic church has condemned homosexual relationships, same-sex marriage on a false understanding, so see, not all truth is in the Catholic church.
For example, the Holy Spirit represents the feminine nature of God. With the Catholic church teaching Christian Spirituality from a male dominated point of view, there is limited openness to the idea that God has both a feminine and a masculine nature. We can recognize God as Father, Mother, Creator, Jesus Christ as Son, Servant, Redeemer and the Holy Spirit as Mother, Comforter and Life-Giver. By being open to all of the various natures of God, we can also be open to all that God can do.
The Holy Spirit is a comforter, consoler and looks after the children of God as a Mother does her children. So the Holy Spirit blesses the Church with her graces and wonderful beauty so to call the Church into all truth, including truths that have not necessarily been understood in previous times.
As usual anyone who debates the "orthodox" teachings of the church, "doesn't know what we are talking about." Yet, God gives to all of us hearts, minds, senses and that which is essential to make choices that are best for us. It is that mind set that turns people away from the church, not towards it. It is the kind of behavior of "You do not know what you are talking about" that has led to pedophile Priests being hidden and protected at the expense of many children who have been molested. And it is the same: "You do not know what you are talking about" that the Church hides Priests even now who are misbehaving towards all kinds of people, many whom are being injured for life, either Spiritually, psychologically and emotionally. And because most "don't know what they are talking about" those Priests are still protected by Bishops, when in fact they should be removed.
BTW, I have worked in many Parish offices, and communicated with this Archdiocese about Priests who have social and psychological issues and was told: "You don't know what you are talking about." One of those Priests has since been committed to anger management only after about seven years of a Priest destroying the Faith of many souls. So, I do know what I am talking about. Knowledge is one thing, experience is something very different.
ReplyDeletePeter by the way, may have been called to be a Spiritual leader, but I doubt that it was the intention of Jesus that he become a giant Political world wide power hungry ruler. Read Papal Sin by Gary Wallis for a different view on that one.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the 'Peter is the rock' statement is it does not take into consideration the truth of who Peter was. He was no rock in anyone's mind except his own and his mother's. I strongly feel Jesus had far more in mind with this statement than a simple appointment of a church leader. Maybe He was trying to point out that he did not want a leadership based in personal certitude, He wanted one based in openess, which is why Jesus is also quoted as saying this: John 16:12-13: “I have much more to teach you, but now it would be too much for you to bear. When, however, the Spirit comes, who reveals the truth about God, He will lead you into all the truth.” Emphasis is on the Spirit leading His followers, not a magisterium.
ReplyDelete